May you please explain this? - English Stack Exchange

may and can are used interchangeably when asking or giving permission. would (or will) and can (or could) are used interchangeably when making a request. [I was ... EnglishLanguage&UsageStackExchangeisaquestionandanswersiteforlinguists,etymologists,andseriousEnglishlanguageenthusiasts.Itonlytakesaminutetosignup. Signuptojointhiscommunity Anybodycanaskaquestion Anybodycananswer Thebestanswersarevotedupandrisetothetop Home Public Questions Tags Users Unanswered Teams StackOverflowforTeams –Collaborateandshareknowledgewithaprivategroup. CreateafreeTeam WhatisTeams? Teams CreatefreeTeam Teams Q&Aforwork Connectandshareknowledgewithinasinglelocationthatisstructuredandeasytosearch. Learnmore Mayyoupleaseexplainthis? AskQuestion Asked 8years,5monthsago Active 4years,9monthsago Viewed 132ktimes 33 9 Atafamilydinner,my18-year-oldnieceaskedmysister,"Mayyoupleasepassthesalt?"Mysistersaidthatshewasimpressedwithherdaughter'spoliteness,butthatthatparticularwordingwasnotcorrect.Myniecesaidthatshehadbeentaughttosaythat(bywhomshecouldnotsay,butprobablybyherfather—theparentsdivorcedyearsago.) Despiteourbestattempts,wewereunabletoconvinceheroftheillogicalnatureofthe"Mayyouplease"construction. Howwouldyouexplainittoher? meaningword-usagemodal-verbspolitenessgrammatical-person Share Improvethisquestion Follow editedFeb16'17at21:30 herisson 70.5k99goldbadges170170silverbadges316316bronzebadges askedJul6'13at12:25 sarahsarah 2,58433goldbadges1919silverbadges2525bronzebadges 14 3 Itshouldbe"mayI"andeither"couldyou","wouldyou",or"mightyou"dependingonyourdialect. – KateGregory Jul6'13at14:49 4 There'ssomeconfusionherealongseveraldimensions,including:(1)thevarioussensesofmay(decodedbyFillmoreinhisfamousanalysisofthesentenceMaywecomein?);(2)indirectrequestsversusyes/noquestionforms;(3)politeversionsofrequestsversusmorepoliteversionsofrequests;and(4)deontic("pragmatic",asFillmorecallsit)canfaluteslowerthandeonticmay,whichresultsinoverproductionofpolitequestionswithmayusedasaninitialpolitenessmarker,regardlessofsyntaxorsemantics.Logicitain't. – JohnLawler Jul6'13at15:58 2 IfIwastryingtobethatpolite,I'dditchthequestionentirely:"Itwouldpleasemewereyoutopassmethesalt." – AJMansfield Jul6'13at17:09 6 No,Ithink(fromwhatlittleevidencethereis,really,it's"guess")thatyourdaughterlearnedazombierulesayingsomethinglike"Mayismorepolitethancaninrequests"andanotherruledefining"CanyoupleaseVerbPhrase"asapoliterequest,andaddedthemtogether.Mostsuchpolitenessphrasesarelearnedbyrote,andaccompaniedbywhateverzombierulesinfectedone'steachers,whichcanbeanythingatall. – JohnLawler Jul7'13at3:54 6 @JohnLawlerandothers:Ilovetheterm"zombierule",butamorepolitewaytorefertowhat'sgoingonhereishypercorrection.Havingbeentaughtthat"CanIgonow?"mustberephrasedas"MayIpleasegonow?",thisgirlconcludesthat"Canyoupassthesalt?shouldbe"Mayyouplease..."It'sthesamephenomenonas"Meandhimaregoing"beingjudgedinferiorto"HeandIaregoing",leadingmanytoconcludethat"Thisisbetweenmeandhim"shouldbereplacedby"ThisisbetweenheandI." – HStephenStraight Jul9'13at18:55  |  Show9morecomments 3Answers 3 Active Oldest Votes 30 Ithinkthatthereispossiblyconfusionherebetweenmay,canandwould. Itispossiblethatsheonceusedtosayexpressionslike: CanIhave... CanIget... andwastaughtthatitwasmorepolitetousemayratherthancaninthatcontext. Althoughstrictly,canrelatestotheabilitytodosomething,whereasmayconcernspermissiontodosomething,canisoftenusedinsteadofmayinconstructssuchastheabove.Thatworksacceptablyinthefirstperson:"Can/MayI[dosomething]". Canandmayarealsousedinterchangeablyisexpressionssuchas: Youmayleavenow. Youcanleavenow. Althoughbothareintendedtogivepermission,again-strictly-thelatterrelatestotheabilitytoleave(asifthepersonwerepreviouslylockedin!). Socanandmayareofteninterchangedwhenaskingorgivingpermission,but,inyourniece'scase,shewasdoingneither:shewasrequestingsomeoneelsetodosomething.Inthatcase,canstillworks,strictlymeaning"Areyouabletopassthesalt?"(maybetheotherpersoncouldn'treachit!),althoughitisreallybeingusedtomean"Wouldyoupleasepassthesalt?".Inthiscase,mayiswrongbecausesheisnotaskingorgivingpermission:sheismakingarequest. So: mayandcanareusedinterchangeablywhenaskingorgivingpermission. would(orwill)andcan(orcould)areusedinterchangeablywhenmakingarequest. [Iwasgoingtosupportthisbyreferringtodictionarydefinitions,but@terdon'sanswer(withdefinitions)gotpostedwhileIwasstillwritingmine,soI'veomitteddoingthat.] Share Improvethisanswer Follow editedJul6'13at23:11 answeredJul6'13at12:59 TrevorDTrevorD 11.8k22goldbadges3131silverbadges6161bronzebadges 5 2 Whataboutcould? – Tortoise Jul6'13at22:28 "Wouldyou"and"couldyou"borderonhypercorrectionofwillyou. – livresque Jul10'14at6:36 Asasidenote,couldorwouldcouldnicelyreplacemayintheOP'sexample. – Cullub May31'18at20:29 @CullubYes,Ialreadysuggestedtheminthethirdlinefromthebottomofmyanswer!ButQ.was"Howwouldyouexplainit?"-notwhatalternativesshouldbeused.ItseemsimplicitthatOPalreadyknewwhatexpressionsshould/couldbeused. – TrevorD Jun1'18at22:55 ThefirsttworeputabledictionariesIcheckedinhave'bepermittedto'asnon-caveateddefinitions.Thiswouldimplythat'Althoughstrictly,canrelatestotheabilitytodosomething,whereasmayconcernspermissiontodosomething'isinaccurate–perhapsanexampleoftheetymologicalfallacy. – EdwinAshworth Apr28'20at14:31 Addacomment  |  13 Thereisnothingillogicalaboutitatall.Itisjustmisplacedinthisparticularcase. MayIisaskingforpermissionwhilecanIisaskingwhetheranactionispossible.However,asyoucanseeinthefollowingdefinitions(bothcomefromtheonlineMerriamWebster,canandmay),thisdistinctionbetweencanandmayseemstobeintheprocessofbecomingobsolete: can,transitiveverb 1a:knowhowto b:be physicallyormentallyableto c—usedto indicatepossibility;sometimesusedinterchangeablywithmay d:be permittedbyconscienceorfeelingto e:bemadepossibleorprobablebycircumstancesto f:beinherentlyableordesignedto g:belogicallyoraxiologicallyableto<2+2can alsobewritten3+1>h:beenabledbylaw,agreement,orcustomto 2:havepermissionto—usedinterchangeablywithmay   may,verbalauxiliary aarchaic:havetheabilityto b:havepermissionto:befreeto—usednearlyinterchangeablywithcan c—usedtoindicatepossibilityorprobability;sometimesusedinterchangeablywithcan;sometimesusedwheremightwouldbeexpected Thiswasalwaysillustratedtomebymyfatherwiththefollowingexample,whichIjustfoundoutisadaptedfromTheHickoryLimb: Mother,canIgoswimming? Yes,mydarlingdaughter;Hangyourclothesonahickorylimb. Anddon'tgonearthewater. Intheexampleabove,thedaughterofanadmittedlyannoyinglyliteralmother,isaskingwhethersheisphysicallyabletogoswimming,notifshehasthepermissiontodosoandthemotheranswersaccordingly. Inthecaseofyourniece,ifyouwantedtobepedantic,youcouldsaythatsheisaskinghermotherwhethershe—hermother—haspermissiontopassthesalt,whilewhatshewantedtodoistoaskhermothertopleasepassthesalt. Share Improvethisanswer Follow editedFeb16'16at11:34 answeredJul6'13at12:46 terdonterdon 20.4k1717goldbadges7777silverbadges118118bronzebadges 8 Surely,thefirstlineofyourquotationshouldread"canI.."forthedaughtertobe"askingwhethersheisphysicallyabletogoswimming". – TrevorD Jul6'13at13:03 Hah,@TrevorDindeeditshould.Ihadfirstquotedfrommemory(usingcan)andthenfoundtheactualquotethatusedmayandblindlycopypastedassumingmyfatherwasquotingdirectly.Apparentlyhewasn't. – terdon Jul6'13at13:07 1 @StoneyBI'lltakeyourwordforit,Ihadnoideaofthesourcemyfather(whowasbornin'38)lovedquotingittome(whowasbornin'80),that'sallIknow. – terdon Jul6'13at13:35 3 OK,so,sheasked"Myyoupleasepassthesalt."Ithinkthepleasemakesitillogical.Whatisthatasking?Ifoneisallowedtopleasepasssomething?Whatis"pleasepassing"?Itjustdoesn'tmakeanysensetome.Also,I'dsayit'sillogicaltousewordsthatmean"Areyouallowedtopassmethesalt?"whenyouhaveabsolutelynodoubtwhatsoeverthatthepersonisallowedtoandallyoureallywanttosayis"Pleasepassmethesalt." – sarah Jul7'13at7:34 2 @sarahah,OK,Iseewhatyoumean.Iagree,thepleasemakesitevenstranger.Icansortofwriggleoutofthatbysayingthatthepleaseisaddressedasanasidetowhoevercangivehermotherpermissiontopassthesalt,butthatreallyisstretchingit,you'reright. – terdon Jul7'13at12:59  |  Show3morecomments 2 Myexplanationwouldbethatwhenshesays,"Mayyoupleasepassthesalt?"sheissaying"Doyou'havepermission'topleasepassthesalt?"Insteadsheshouldbesaying,"Wouldyoupleasepassthesalt."whichmeans,"'Areyouwilling(itisatyourdiscretion)topleasepassthesalt?" Share Improvethisanswer Follow answeredJul10'13at2:13 BenjaminWadeBenjaminWade 38311silverbadge77bronzebadges 2 'Will','could',and'can'allwork.+1forquicklyhoninginontheproblemwiththeillogicalphrasing,though. – lly Jun1'18at18:04 Thiswouldworkwithnopolitenessmarkerorwithoneatthestartortheendofthesentence(apoliterequestforananswertothequestion).It'simpossiblewithmedial'please'. – EdwinAshworth Apr28'20at14:34 Addacomment  |  Highlyactivequestion.Earn10reputation(notcountingtheassociationbonus)inordertoanswerthisquestion.Thereputationrequirementhelpsprotectthisquestionfromspamandnon-answeractivity. Nottheansweryou'relookingfor?Browseotherquestionstaggedmeaningword-usagemodal-verbspolitenessgrammatical-personoraskyourownquestion. 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